May 29, 2007

You are the most hateful, horrible evil man I have ever found. How dare you presume to know more about how to raise my child then I do! [Name] is a good Christian and if she has any questions she can find the answers in the Bible. I’d tell you to read it yoru self but it would burn your fingers to the bone. There is no room for doubt in the love of Jesus Christ. Doubting His love is rejection of the Holy Spirit which is the greatest most unforgivable sin. She is NOT old enough to be talking to perverts on the computer. She is a CHILD! I saw your Web site now and see that this is so much worse than I could have imagined. [Name] will be on her knees with her father and me praying for forgiveness for what you have done. You are the devil’s servent and when you burn the angels will sing.

Please do not punish your daughter any further for this. I have no problem with your being angry at me, but your daughter is completely innocent of everything but stumbling upon a Web site and asking a question. Depending on how she uses the Web, she may have even been directed to my site inadvertently. Now is a time to explain to your daughter why you are concerned, not to punish her for trying to use her mind or sending a curious e-mail.

Take a step back and look at this situation. Don’t let your anger make you do something that you will later regret.

On you opening page you ask if ‘you want to ask about your new religion.’

That is as far as I’ve gotten because I felt that the ‘religion’ reference deserved a response. (It is funny.) But certainly you must know that being an atheist is the opposite of having a religion. As in, not subscribing to any superstitions whatever.

Best to you. B

Good point. That was a mistake on my part and I have remedied it.

im agnostic because i believe that one cant either prove or dissprove that a diety exsists or not because there is no real evidence.

Fair enough. From that position, you could also call yourself an atheist if you thought that the possibility of a deity existing was particularly small, even if there was no proof of no god (which would be close to impossible to come up with in any case). But if you feel that there being a god is just a likely as there not being a god, then calling yourself an agnostic is probably the best choice.

Hello, from the Atheists club on DeviantArt. Keep up the good work.

And hello back to you! For my curiosity, could you tell me what kinds of things your atheist club does so I can share it with my blog readers?

But I don’t wanna be an atheist !!!!!
Do I have to die , in order to be let out of this thing ???

No. A note from your mother will also be acceptable.

I am a mother and a Christian. I monitor my daughter’s email and saw that you recently sent my daughter [name] an email encouraging her to “think about” cher Christian values which is just a slick tongued way of tempting her to turn her back on the Lord. My daughter is 15 and still a child. She relies on her parents for moral guidance and should be free from the machinations of a child preditor such as yourself. I can only imagine where you would have tried to lead [name] if I had not been there! She should have told me immediately when you contacted her and she has lost her computer priviliges for two weeks. If you continue to harass her or attempt to contact her in any way we will inform the police. I will pray for your soul.

Madam, I have no idea who your daughter is. I receive a great amount of correspondence through my IAmAnAtheist Web site and blog, and most of it is either anonymous or signed with a screen name. I don’t know the age of most of the people I correspond with, and frankly I feel that anyone old enough to write to me with an intelligent question is old enough to receive an honest answer. These aren’t toddlers asking whether Santa exists.

I encourage all people -- religious or not -- to think carefully about their beliefs, and frankly I think you should, too. How is your daughter supposed to resist temptation and know right from wrong if she is not confident to her core in her own religion?

I must be very clear here -- I didn’t contact your daughter, she contacted me. And to be further frank, if she lives in a house hold where inquiry into the religious beliefs of others gets her two weeks of lost computer privileges, then no wonder she is asking questions behind your back. You might do better to give her a little freedom now rather than trying to keep her bottled up and risking a full-scale rebellion when she’s old enough to head out on her own.

I appreciate your offer of prayer but, frankly, I think you need to use them at home first.

Hi,

One of the problems in discussing issues of self-worth is that we cannot view them objectively when it comes to our own situation. Our own self worth is so important that, for our psychological well being, we have to defend it.

Concerning your analogy. Wouldn’t the driving force behind the great chef be pride? And pride manifests itself as a feeling? And isn’t pride closely related to self worth?

I agree with you that we can point to motives of pure self interest for helping others. In fact, gaining feelings of pride or self-esteem from helping other people are also motives of pure self interest. The problem is that if we truly recognize that our motives for helping others are pure self interest, it destroys the very feelings of self esteem that we were trying to achieve. The difference between altruism and “feel-goodism” rests in self-deception.

When a chef prepares a great meal, that food is just a means to satisfy a need for his/her self esteem. Likewise, when we do our good works, the people we help are just a means to satisfy our self esteem.


I think I understand where you are coming from, but I am honestly not sure what the ultimate point is. I suppose one could look at any sane, voluntary human action and find a way to say that it ultimately was motivated by a desire to feel good. But this exercise, so far as I can see, really tells us nothing and may in fact be deceptive in that we cannot truly get into the minds of others. It also may tend to devalue what we would label altruistic actions, and that could have significant social cost.

I disagree with your statement that recognizing self interest destroys feelings of self esteem. My personal ethics are derived from self interest, but I get satisfaction from knowing that I live as philosophically consistent a life as possible.

Interesting points.

My own scientific education was sufficient to make me understand the processes of evolution, and the title article in the June 2007 Scientific American about early replicators and their role in the origin of life pushes back my concept of what a creator would have to be responsible for even further. (It also contains an excellent paragraph or two on the Second Law of Thermodynamics, and how living beings can increase in order.) Considering that I had already believed in a non-deific origin for life, this article was a godsend. ;-)

My sense of wonder and awe at the universe remains undiminished, but I do not believe that the variety of existance of life on earth some attribute to God required much more than the switch being flicked on. Life and the wonders of the cosmos are a natural byproduct of existence. I still don’t know how existence started, yet it is my thankfulness for the universe as it is that leads me to contemplation of the beginings of things and Deism, in the 18th centrury sense of the word.

I don’t think that I could reason myself into a strict interpretation faith in the Bible. I might be able to delude myself into such faith, but my reason rejects that position. I do not deny that there are other, more moderate postions that I might be able to accept, but I am not familiar with proofs that convince me of anything beyond Deism.

With regards to myself, I am more concerned with the negatives of religion, especially as concerns belief without thought and belief in things not supported by facts. My study of ethics leads me to conclude that moral instruction is important, but there exist alternatives to strictly religious instruction that do not have the aforementioned pitfalls. I find a critical mind one of the most important tools I use to confront the problems I face, and as a society I think that educating children to maximize these faculties is important if we wish to confront the massive problems confronting us as a species. And I agree that religion does not necessarily preclude free thought, but there are tendencies within most religions to oppose any thought which contradicts the tenets of faith. Revalation, in this sense, can oppose all the evidence science and reason can muster.

Self-rightousness and pride are sins as far as I can recall, and that contraditction is most telling. Though it must be admitted that many religious people do not display these behaviors, I feel that this silent majority does nothing to support rational thought as a pivotal societal value. I cite the decline of research funding, the policicalization of science, and the poor quality of education in america as primary evidence. Ignorance is on the rise.

I find the discussion of the cultural value of religion most interesting. I have a firm belief that groups of dedicated people can effect change within their communities, and I believe that many churches perform positive functions when they set themselves to good works. I also think that socialization is very important to the human experience, but when I look at (fringe) groups like the Westburough Baptists protesting homosexuality at memorial services for fallen servicemen, I have to wonder about the everyday impact of religion on our society. It’s a mixed bag, I suppose.

I suspect that the Unitarians are the proper organization to facilitate a prolonged discussion about the specifics of religion. I certainly enjoy the benefits of their community and the social engagement that their church facilitates.

Thank you for taking the time to discuss this with me, it has been most helpful.

I appreciate the follow-up and additional details about your philosophical experience. Regarding the origin of the universe, I think we are at a point scientifically where whether or not a reasonable person believes in a Deist-type creator pretty much boils down to your personal estimation of the probability of a supernatural being. I consider such a thing so unlikely in the face of so many non-supernatural possibilities that I don’t even worry about it. However, other people (perhaps including you) have their own opinions on the matter and I cannot say that my opinion has any more or less validity.

We run into difficulty when people consider a deity to be the most likely possibility and make a leap from there to the existence of the Judeo-Christian God. I don’t think that is a reasonable chain of thinking, and it is one that you nicely avoid.

Thanks again for writing.

My smugness is a result of dealing on a day-to-day basis with a horde of people who could not care less about how their actions effect others. People seem to be far too content to be ignorant and asleep. They come out of stores and onto the sidewalk without looking to see if anyone's coming. Co-workers will slack on their work, leaving it for others to complete so they can watch YouTube. They go to lunch directly from church and treat their waiter like a lesser being. The spit on ground in the immediate proximity of others. They cheat on their spouses and significant others instead of having the courage to communicate or divorce. They have a feeling that animals are abused, but they'd prefer not to see the evidence, because this would mean feeling guilty for participating in the abuse via their consumption. They don't use their signal in traffic. They knock something over in a store and don't put it back. They play their music too loud in their headphones on the subway. They slam doors instead of shutting them. They throw their litter on the ground when a trashcan is a few feet away. They leave their dog tied up outside at night, alone, and their cat in an apartment, alone, and their bird in a cage, alone. And they wonder why the dog mauls the neighbor's daughter, or the cat pisses in the corner or knocks over a vase, or the bird chews off all its feathers. They support a war that has no justification but where hundreds of thousands die. They think evolution is a myth and can't see somehow that we're not the only ones with hair, fingers and teeth. I could go on and on.

What I don't see nearly as often are people doing nice things for each other. Not even altruistic things, just simple things that require a very basic sense of decency and respect and little effort, things that, with a little bit of practice early on, become habit. So maybe I'm smug, but I'd prefer to call it frustration. I'm frustrated that I appear to be one of a pitiful few who appears to know the rules and does his best to follow them after several millennia of great spiritual and moral leaders preaching very simple but very profound lessons. And I realize that the way I phrase things doesn't solve anything. I apologize. I haven't arrived at that point yet, but I hope to someday.

Some answers to your questions; and comments: I would definitely eat meat if I knew the animals were slaughtered in a "humane" fashion. I used to enjoy meat very much. Meanwhile, during my time as a vegan I've learned a great deal about what is healthy and what is not. So if I were to go back to consuming animal products I'd be much smarter about it. But I don't think I will, because I'm convinced I'm better off this way. Win-win. Relatedly: Sure, if one knows for a fact that the animal product one is consuming (e.g., eggs or meat from free-range chickens) then logically it's okay. Humans are designed to eat meat, so if a way to do so benevolently is achieved - because unlike other animals, we have this choice - then I say go for it; and thank you. I will say that the whole milk and cheese industry is a farce, and is doing a great disservice to people, cows and goats. Unlike our consumption of meat, we are clearly not designed to consume the milk of another animal, and it has dire effects on our common health. Pain is pain. We should find ways to avoid it especially if it is not we who choose it, for one reason or another. Pain itself tells us this, as sentient beings. It says, and sometimes screams, "This is bad. Please try to stop this now, and avoid what is causing this in the future." Just because the pain we inflict upon others is not our pain, doesn't make it somehow better. So no, I don't accept your example of a flu vaccine. I don't believe that there need to be any remedies that cause pain for anyone. We're smarter than that. Or should be, anyway. And it's not our right to transfer our pain to others. It is obvious. It's not more expensive to be vegetarian. It just takes more work, at least initially. This is the problem. Not health, finances or location.

I'm glad you see some free thought and tolerance in religion these days. I've someone managed to miss it. I see things like an evangelical having been elected to the most powerful position in the world - twice. I see various European countries electing staunchly religious leaders, even after they've seen what it has done to the United States. I see third-world countries killing millions for religious reasons. And I foresee a very long and very gruesome battle between Christianity and Islam this century. I see that a multi-million dollar creationist museum opened today in Kentucky, which will teach its children that humans existed among dinosaurs less than 6,000 years ago and that tyrannosaurus was a herbivore before Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden. Those same children will vote for a Bush-like president in the future. I also see that those who are most likely to go to church are most likely to "sin" because Jesus spends his time faithfully cleaning up after them. Thanks for being honest. I will do my best to be less smug in the future.

I think we've moved a bit here from smug to cynical. I agree that all of the problems you mention are epidemic (well, except for the ones about the war and evolution, which I think are a little oversimplified), and I agree that seeing them constantly is enough to test the resolve of even the staunchest optimist. But I think we have to take care not to let this make us cynical, like the police officer who sees so much crime day in and day out that she starts to assume that everyone is a criminal.

I agree that we don't see enough basic courtesy and consideration around us, but we do see some. People hold doors for me or ask me if I need assistance when I appear troubled – not as often as I like, but not never, either. I agree that such simple niceties aren't more widespread, and I think we'd agree that there seems to be too much focus on not committing big, easy-to-avoid sins ("don't rob a bank") and not enough on why you shouldn't rationalize bad behavior ("stealing from a company is still stealing.")

I'd say that the first step toward fixing this kind of problem is to set a good example. This means not only behaving morally and ethically (which it sound like you do), but also making it clear that this behavior makes you a happier person (which is the hard part). When you lash out at or condescend to immoral or unethical people, it may actually reinforce their bad behavior. That's why I think we all need to guard against being smug, condescending, or haughty (not that you are doing any of these). Yes it's frustrating and annoying and can feel like you're banging your head on stone, but being good can be hard work – that's why so many people don't do it.

Your answer to the question about whether you'd eat humanely slaughtered meat was interesting. Currently there is research into growing meat without the associated animal, and I'm hoping that this soon becomes a reality and we can do away with killing animals for food entirely.

I disagree with the statement "pain is pain." I'd say that personal pain or pain to one's group gains an increase in value – it's not always more important than other kinds of pain, but it at least wins in a tie. For example, most people would say that if Bob and Joe were lost at sea, it would be more moral for them to catch and eat 100 fish than for one of them to kill the other for food. (On the other hand, I am against catch-and-release fishing because the fun of fishing does not outweigh the pointless harm done to fish.)

When you say, "I don't believe that there need to be any remedies that cause pain for anyone," I wonder if you are being a bit idealistic. I agree that this should be a primary goal, but at this time in our history it is not possible unless we are going to let some serious diseases go untreated. For example, I don't think that diabetics should have had to suffer (and perhaps die) without insulin until it could be derived from bacterial instead of animal sources. Scientists are working on ways to make flu vaccines without eggs, but until they do I think that the avoidance of a flu plague is probably worth the pain caused to chickens (but I'm more open to argument on this one). There are also medical tests that, I think, it is more moral to perform on animals than on humans – and ironically some of these will be necessary in order to develop drugs that can be produced without harming animals. Even so, I think such tests should be performed as little as practicable and that the animals should be treated as well as possible.

You say, "It's not more expensive to be vegetarian. It just takes more work, at least initially. This is the problem. Not health, finances or location." I am very skeptical about this being as universally true as you make it sound. Even though my family is vegetarian, I personally cannot be for health reasons (I have food allergies that severely limit my food choices). I am not convinced that it is globally true that vegetarianism is not more expensive, and I'm guessing that there are people – some Inutis, for example – who live in places where vegetarianism would be more than just inconvenient. It's true that healthy vegetarianism takes research and initial work, and for some people this may be an insurmountable barrier. An inner-city single mother with two jobs may not feel like the additional inconvenience of vegetarianism is worth what little time she has.

My hope is that, as convenient, good-tasting vegetarian food becomes more common, that single mother will be able to be a healthy vegetarian without as much difficulty. This is one area in which I have a lot of hope, as there has been copious progress over the last decade. One thing I think vegetarians need to do is significantly encourage corporations to develop vegetarian alternatives. For example, when McDonalds introduced a non-meat hamburger, the vegetarian community's reaction seemed to be largely negative. The criticism was not incorrect, but I think it also gave McDonalds the impression that they should just stay out of this market. Encouraging the company to do even more instead of berating them for not doing enough might have been more effective in the long run. Another example would be Disney, which is currently trying to associate its name more with healthy food. If people support this, then more companies will follow suit. (By the way, almost every restaurant at Walt Disney World has vegetarian food on the menu, and table-service restaurants will ensure that vegan food is available with advance notice.)

I agree that the religious landscape isn't all honey and roses, but it's not a potter's field, either. You're right that there is too much religion in politics today, and you're probably right that there may be a major war or genocide involving religion in the not-too-distant future. I still see hope, though. That creationist museum you mentioned was largely laughed at in the press (at least out here in California), and I don't think it's going to teach children anything their parents weren't already teaching them or convert anyone to Christianity. You'll also note that attempts to introduce creationism into school curriculum have largely failed or been undone.

I disagree that church makes people more likely to sin – it may allow them to feel righteous, but I doubt it changes their behavior much because I doubt that many people actively think along the lines of "I'll steal this bicycle and ask for forgiveness later". At worst, religions of this kind likely just discourage people from thinking about morality by telling them that they are already moral, but then your average person doesn't seem to think about morality much regardless of their theism or lack thereof. I also note that in religions where morality is more actively taught (such as Mormonism), there is more morality and less self-righteousness.

Religious intolerance breeds best in isolation, and the Internet is making that isolation more difficult to maintain. I am encountering more religious people who are willing to discuss their beliefs now than I did 20 years ago, and I've seen many of the religious people I knew back then grow into atheism. I also am hopeful about things like the "Come Let Us Reason" Christian apologist podcast, which encourages people to think about and discuss religion intelligently (even if I don't think many of its arguments are very compelling). And, for all the hate mail I've received from religious people, I have received even more thoughtful, intelligent, honestly inquiring e-mail from religious people. That's a good sign, and I find it more productive to focus on these small victories than on all the battles not yet won.

You are another good sign. I'm guessing that if you look through your family tree you don't find it populated with people who think about morality as well or as much as you do. And if you can progress, then others can as well. I have a goal of facilitating that progress by making it attractive, easy, and welcoming. I think you may be the kind of person who could make a lot of progress with a similar goal. Just think of clear thinking as a virus – "infect" enough people, and you can change the world.

lol i loved ur little time waster site!! im already an atheist but i wasnt i guess i am now!

You da man. You show great courage and insight. Here's a question I have: In an imperfect world, in which we so obviously live, how is it that electrons, et al, can revolve in perfect orbit, around its nucleus, in parallel to our own solar system ... with no outside help from man? I believe the energy that does that ... is God. Whaddya think? That's my best guess. Which, of course, is light years beyond anything some dick-head preacher might say (Not that all preachers are dick-heads. But oh so many are, n'est pas?

Interesting question – and one I hadn't heard before. Fortunately (for me, at least), it has an easy answer: Electrons don't orbit around an atom's nucleus like a little universe. That atomic model was replaced by a much more esoteric (but accurate) quantum physics model in which electron orbits have been replaced by an electron cloud that represents the probability of an electron being in a given place at a given time.

But let's pretend that your original statement was correct and electrons orbited around atoms in the same way that planets orbited around a sun. I'd say that the "god" that kept these orbits perfect (insofar as they are perfect) wouldn't be any supernatural deity, but rather the mathematics of a stable system. Different physical forces bind atoms and planets, but both of them are bound by the laws of mathematics.

My husband was an athiest when I met him and I was very very religious. He kept pushing my faith and asking questions until the questions were more real to me than the faith. I appreciate him for that, though at the time it was hard. I don't take anything for granted anymore and I think things through better than I used to. I feel like Atheism has made me into a better person. I am now a thinking person instead of a following person. It is a rare breed of Xian who thinks. This is a great site, and a funny one. Thanks!

Thanks for the great story! I believe that anyone – religious or not – who spends significant time examining their own beliefs and assumptions will end up a better person. Unfortunately it seems rare for people to go through this kind of introspection, regardless of where their beliefs come from. I wish there were more thinking people like you!

Hello, first of all I'd just like to say that it's so refreshing to read intelligent arguments about this subject rather than the stubborn abuse you usually find. I just wrote to recmommend a TV show you may enjoy though I expect you've already seen it, I'm recommending it just in case you haven't. It's called The Power of Myth and it features Joseph Campbell. It gives a nice insight into religeon looking from a mythological point of view.

Anyway if you've seen it that's cool, if you haven't I'd recommend you watch it.

The Power of Myth is indeed very interesting (I'm more familiar with the book than the TV show). It not only helps explain the origin of religion, it also says a lot about how we build stories that become an important part of our culture. Studying this and books like Brunvand's series on urban legends can go a long way toward explaining how a religion can arise and develop without anyone setting out to intentionally deceive. For atheists in particular, this may be very useful knowledge.

lol! I love it! I am Wiccan and often get "grouped" into the label those "Good Christians" give people who believe outside THEIR little box. My mom, being a good Christian, is abusive, had an affair with the neighbor, withheld medical treatment for us kids, and worries more about what people think than what her children needed or wanted.My dad, a good christain, is a child molester( he shoulda been a priest) Another good Christian- catholic, in fact, bluntly asked me for a specific sexual act ( I was a waitress and friend of his wifes) because I looked spunky and his wife wouldn't do that for him. OH did I mention, he was a friend of my husbands also? Oh wait! He could go say his Hail Marys at confession and viola' God forgave him and he was sin free! Asshole. As long as these "alledged" christians go to church on sunday, it is a free for all 6 days a week!! They rarely follow their own commandments their god set forth, rarely refrain from judging people.ah isn't tha t their Gods job? AND how can mortal men pretend to have a direct line to god because they have a degree from college??? I have a degree for corrections officier.does that mean I have a direct line to Satan or God or anyone??? Nope ahhh DUR! I live as morally, lovingly, helpfully and judge little ( I am human) but I do believe that there are many demi gods and one super being, by the way, both male and female. The bible was revised so many times to suit human/mens wants and needs..nice story kids but come on, wake up get real and there are more than 1 day a week to become a good person! I support this site, altho- I do believe in my Gods, I understand your points and back all you atheiests 100%..free choice. I believe it is the open minded and those who have a free mind and open eyes that see that Christians are merely those that need to PROVE to themselves they are good..actions speak louder than words...I see no actions to support christians are good daily..never have. I w as almost burned alive in my home with my children because a bapti minister called me a witch and the bible states "thou shall not suffer a witch to live" This was in a small MI. town in 1989.Back in the day of Jesus a witch was one who poisoned wells to get back at their neighbor. King James the crazy SOB wanted all the gypsys dead so he incorporated the death of all witches. Killing is a commandment since when? By the way..all you christains can we wiccans have all our own holidays back and YOU make up your own????

The problem, as you point out, isn't that Christians are more immoral than any other group, but that they sometimes seem to say, "I am a good person because I am Christian, regardless of my behavior." I can't help but think that the Protestant belief that God doesn't count good behavior toward salvation only makes the situation worse.

I would say that all those people who say that religion is the only true source of morality have an extra obligation to demonstrate the morality they profess. It is tragic that there are so many who do not do so, but still condemn as immoral those of us whose morality is not derived from Judeo-Christian scripture.

I grew up Catholic, and although I remember being taught the Ten Commandments in Sunday school, I don't recall any significant attempt to look at how they should be applied to real life. I am going to post your note on my blog and ask any Christian readers who happen to see it to let us know what kind of moral education they have had.

One last note – I'm not going to completely sympathize with your desire to get holidays back from the Christians. I'm an atheist with a tendency to co-opt Christian holidays, and I don't want to have to stop (even though it does irritate some of them).

By the way, in arguments against atheist, Einstein did not believe in a "personal" God.

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." (1954 "Albert Einstein: The Human Side")

You are, of course, correct. This points out one of the problems we have when discussing atheism – there are a lot of definitions of god floating around there, but people tend to assume that the definition they use is the one everyone uses. The same kind of problem turns up with the word Christian – some people call Thomas Jefferson a Christian because he spoke of God and Jesus, but his beliefs (which were very close to atheistic) would not fit with those of any major Christian religion in the U.S. today.

May 28, 2007

What do you think about Aquinas' 5 vias (in order to prove God's existence)?

Now there's a big question in a small sentence!

In a nutshell:

First argument: Anything that is moved is moved by something. Since some things are in motion and we don't allow infinite regress, there must have been a prime mover.

My response: Physics allows both motion without cause (at least on the quantum level) and a non-deity prime mover (the big bang).

Second argument: Some things are caused. Anything that is caused was itself caused by something else and we don't allow infinite regress, so there must be something uncaused.

My response: Quantum physics (again) allows creation without cause. It is possible that the big bang was a random, uncaused quantum fluctuation. And while we're at it, I don't see why we have to rule out infinite regressions (of universes, say) since something out there has to be infinite.

Third argument: A "contingent" thing is something that may or may not exist. It's impossible for everything to be contingent because you can't get something from nothing, so there has to be at least one thing that is not contingent but necessary. That something is God.

My response: Again, many of the "givens" in this statement are invalidated by physics. You can get something from nothing, and an infinite regression of universes (among other theories) would fit the shoes of a contingent being.

Fourth argument: Things are more or less perfect. Being able to assign a degree of perfection assumes the existence of perfection. That perfection is God.

My response: This, at most, proves that perfection must exist as a concept. It doesn't prove that God exists in reality.

Fifth argument: Anything that is designed has a designer, and since the universe is designed it must have a designer. That designer is God.

My response: The universe isn't designed.

Here's a little housekeeping note for y'all. From this point forward, I will no longer be posting profanity on this blog. Instead, I'll edit it a bit so that it can be understood in context but the naughtiness isn't explicit. I'm doing this after it came to my attention that the large instance of mail referring to me as a f****t, etc., might be causing the blog to be blocked by nannyware.

I also have not been publishing all complimentary e-mails as I did in the past. There has been a gigantic influx of e-mail in the last few days, so I have been picking and choosing a little bit to keep the workload manageable. I'm still publishing all the hate mail, though (because some enjoy reading it so much!)

I appreciate everyone's understanding!

I can give you a source that will answer all of what you're looking for and I can guarantee that you can't read it from cover to cover and not believe. Its called the BIBLE. And don't try to tell me you already have, because I know you're lying.

My home library has nearly 100 Bibles and books about Judeo-Christian scripture. I've read the Bible in whole several times, in a variety of translations, including the 12-volume Interpreter's Bible. I've read particular parts of the Bible more than this, including multiple readings of the Gospels when I was putting together my www.gospelsinparallel.com Web site.

Can you tell me what it is in the Bible that you think would compel an atheist to theism? You may be interested to know that it was my first attempt to read the Bible from cover to cover as a teenager -- and the religious community's response to my questions about what I was reading -- that lead me down the road to atheism.

I look forward to your response. I also hope that your knowledge of the truth of your beliefs is based on something stronger than your "knowledge" that I have not read the Bible.

Have you considered adding a link for Atheists contemplating suicide - although I really don't know what sound advice you could offer that would make someone think twice about going through with it. They're certainly not going to find hope in your message. Your first commandment should be "Thou shall not kill thyself - it would be bad"

I doubt that atheists are any more prone to suicide than anyone else, so it would not be appropriate for me to have a page for suicidal atheists. In fact, I would never want to do anything to perpetuate the stereotype that atheists are depressed.

As for commandments about suicide, I think that's covered under "don't kill." Certainly self murder is murder.

It's true that there's not a lot of hope to be found on the IAmAnAtheist site, but there is nothing there to cause despair, either. There is great fulfillment and joy to be found in the world, whether or not there is a deity of some sort. I would be happy to set straight anyone who thinks otherwise.

Do you find that the Atheistic movement is militant, much like the Gay movement? Do you think the two movements are comprised of much the same people? Maybe the two organizations could merge to become the Godless and Gay alliance. An alliance that strong would be unequaled by any other. I suppose Christianity is Militant in many respects, I mean, the Crusades of the middles-ages is certainly the proof in the pudding. But what are the Gay's and Godless fighting to achieve? I mean there's almost no point in fighting to press a Godless belief on someone. At least the crusaders had the salvation of the savage souls in mind. If its Society's acceptance of their lifestyle that the Gay's want, will someone please tell them then that the battle has already been won. The only hold-out in this society is the Christian fundamentalists, and besides, the lifestyle would just become a bore if everyone accepted it. Isn't the thrill of the homosexual experience in its taboo nature.

I know (or, at least, I hope) you are being sarcastic, but the ignorance implicit in this note is just depressing. Gay people are no more likely to be atheists than anyone else. You are right, though, that both homosexuals and atheists have a fight on their hands, but we aren't trying to force our beliefs on anyone -- rather, we're just fighting as hard as we can to be allowed to live our lives as we see fit.

If you think that society has accepted the gay lifestyle, then I think you need to review data from recent state votes on gay marriage. Atheists have similar problems (although not to the same extreme), and it wasn't that long ago that the President of the United States said that he thought an atheist couldn't be a good American.

Your comment about the "thrill of the homosexual experience" is by far the most offensive. People don't "choose" to be gay because it's exciting, any more than sincere atheists choose their beliefs to be cool or rebellious. Would gay people rather not have feelings that got them shunned by society? Obviously. Would atheists rather that there was a magical fairyland we went to after we died? Of course. But reality gets in the way of these wishes. Perhaps if you spent a little more time in reality you would see that.

If I'm going to be an Atheist, does this mean that I have to now come up with my own set of answers in explaining the non-existence of a God. Is there a 'cafeteria' style set of beliefs in-place that I can pick and choose from to help me explain why I believe what I believe. I'm mean, the Christians seem to have it so much easier in having a book to refer to. With no organized concepts or guidelines to refer to, I'm afraid I'm going to say the wrong thing. And then I'd feel like a big jerk. Are there any particular times during the year, perhaps at the summer equinox or fall solstice, when atheists assemble to discuss their common beliefs and fellowship. I believe the theists would refer to this as a 'bible-study'. I think this would be just the thing to help us Atheists solidify our beliefs. I mean, we get enough of the predictable counter-arguments, but our arguments always seem to be rhetorical. I'm not smart enough to keep coming up with fresh counter-poi nts on my own.

Regarding the non-existence of God, there is nothing to explain. We don't need a book because we have no dogma. There's nothing "wrong" to say if you are sincerely talking about your thoughts and feelings. There are no atheists get-togethers (aside from annual Illuminati meetings for the elect). You don't need to worry about "predictable counter arguments" if you are not making arguments in the first place, and if you feel that you are not intelligent enough to engage in discussions about religion, then don't. You should worry less about snappy answers to theistic questions and more about your own beliefs.

By the way, one of your beliefs seems to be that it's funny to send a bunch of potentially inflammatory e-mails my way, but I intend to keep replying as if you are asking sincere questions. Let me know when you either get tired or want to have a more worthwhile discussion.

Is it a pre-condition for an Atheist to consider themself to be on the highest plain of existence in terms of intelligence and enlightenment and that nothing else that exists has more intelligence or enlightenment?

No.

Is it paradoxical to believe that a soul can exist beyond the physical confines of the human body and yet not believe in a god? Because in essence, continuing to exist beyond the physical confines of the human body is very much a god like characteristic.

There is no paradox for a number of reasons. Most importantly, the existence of something with a certain characteristic does not imply that something else with that characteristic exists. For example, the universe being infinite does not imply that anything else infinite exists (assuming that the universe is infinite, of course).

And in any case, I see no reason to believe that souls exist.

Does atheism address an afterlife? If its possible for us to exist as a life-form in the here and now, its certainly not that far-fectched to imagine an existence beyond the boundaries of this physical vessel we currently reside in.

It's not farfetched to imagine anything you like, but that has no implications for reality. So far as I can tell, post-life existence would require a reality completely different from that we observe.

I read a reply about the four main ways people use to try and convert you, all of which prove insufficant because none seem to give the answers you would need. Most Christans believe simply out of faith something people like you (and me) simply don't feel is enough. I have always wondered how someone could do that and I've come to believe that it's in some way (small or large) because faith is your best choise. You have two options believe or don't believe. Now asuming that God dosn't exsist and your left no better or no worse when you die, with which ever you choise. Still asuming God dosn't exsist, when you believe you have a rigied time honored set of morals your, hopefully, going to follow under fear of reincarnation or of hell fire and brimstone, sure your not realy going to hevan or nervana but at least you had a reason to try and be good while you were here. Again still asuming God dosn't exist, if you dont believe than you have no pushing reason to be a good person (not saying that you wont be or that you aren't), you wont be juged when you die so you can do what ever you want free of eternal punishment, though it wouldn't be coming even if you did. So if god dosn't exsist were all better of if everyong believed in someing so they could have a reason to be good and to do good for others. Now asuming God dose exsist if you believe, well you get to spend the rest of time in happy, fun, sunshine, rainbow land praising God in all his/her splended glory. (maybe the descriotion of heven was a little much but I'm not trying to be to serious and I hope no one is offened). And if you don't believe well, cause God sent his son to earth to die for you and you still wont believe, you get eternity in hell or where ever God chose to send you. Now I'm not one to be tempted by sunshine and rainbows but this argument (writen by a more litterate persan than my self) is the reson I started considering maybe one day posibly giveing God a real shot in my life, I mean why not your only other options are, nothing, e as a worm, hell, and a couple of other icky places I don't want to go and things I don't want to be.

Also let me apologize for any vaugeness or bad grammer, I don't mean to be not perfect but no matter what you believe, you understand there is not much we can do about that. (though with dictionary.com and more free time I could probably could have fixed it)

What you are describing is referred to as Pascal's wager. It boils down to this: why not believe since if you are wrong you lose nothing but if you are right you gain everything.

Pascal's wager is a flawed argument for a number of reasons, including:

1) Most people can't believe something just because it would be in their best interest to do so. Could you honestly make yourself believe that Benjamin Franklin was still alive if his being alive would get you a million dollars? Similarly, I can't "just believe" in God the way religious people often urge me to. I find it scary (in a 1984 kind of way) that people seem to think we can adjust our deepest feelings so easily.

2) It assumes that there are only two options -- believe and possibly be rewarded, or don't believe and lose the possibility of reward. But there are many other possibilities. For example, there is at least one option for every religion that says it is the one true religion. Will believing in the Christian God get you to heaven if Islam is the one true way? Remember that many Protestants think that Catholics are not going to their reward, so just believing in God in general may not be enough. And what if none of the major religions are correct? What if there is a deity out there, but it hates people who are religious only out of self interest? Then you loose no matter what you choose for these reasons.

3) Pascal's wager also ignores the costs associated with belief. Being religious means directing some of your time, energy, and money toward religion, and these are things that might better be used elsewhere if the religion in question is not true. Perhaps even more important, some kinds of religious thought and practice (allowing religious authorities to dictate your opinion or relying on feelings to make decisions instead of reason) can lead to difficulties in other areas of life (such as being taken in by fraudulent religious practitioners).

Thanks for writing. Let me know if you would like more clarification on any of this.

I am sending you vile hatemail!

Back at cha!

Thank you so much for helping me lift the burden off my shoulders!

Thank you so much for glorifying atheists in the right way and letting others know that atheists are not careless rebels that have no morals. You have no idea how often I've been questioned because "I have no morals to live by".

Just because I don't need some mythical book or scripture to tell me how to live my life doesn't mean I go out and murder and prostitute myself. I can be a law-abiding respectable human without believing in a higher being.

To anyone who questions your logic: Good for those who do horrible things and think that everything's forgiven by prayer. I hope they can live life happily and not in fear. I'm having a great time!

Actually, I probably do have an idea of how often your morals have been questioned -- believe me, I've been there plenty of times. Good for you for sticking to your personal morality in the face of such silliness!

I was an atheist before, am I a double atheist now?

No -- it's kind of like doubling infinity; you still get infinity.

Heh, I think it's funny that on this page of your site [hate mail page] Lots of people are saying that there is proof of God everywhere, yet not one of them has named any 'proof'. Good work on this site :D It really shows how intolerant some religious people can be sometimes.

Frankly, I wish this site didn't show so well how intolerant some religious people are. There are plenty of tolerant religious people (and plenty of intolerant atheists), and I hate to be inadvertently reinforcing stereotypes.

I also wish more people wrote with proofs of God's existence. It would be instructional for all of us.

Loved the arguments, but what's with the ads for God at the bottom? Google can't come up with more appropriate ads? Don't need an answer. You're probably aware of this, but if not, maybe you want to look into it.

The ads are generated automatically by Google, as you guessed. They don't bother me, in that atheists have nothing to fear from them (I feel that to some extent the more you know about arguments for theism, the better atheist you can be), and the advertisers get charged whenever someone clicks on one of them. I think it's kind of funny that what little money I get is sometimes coming from religious organizations. So if you see something down there that makes you curious, investigate!

this site is halarious! i love the arguments page because i agree with almost every comeback

on the atheist rights and responsibilities page, one through ten, is that a joke or blatant mockery? im not sure if you realize, but the ten commandments were simply reworded in places and plagiarized in others. i would really love to write more but i broke my hand and it hasd taken me ten mintues to write thus far. you have my pleas for worth!

I'd say it's satire -- a joke and blatant mockery with a message. The page is intended to point out to those who think atheists can't be moral without religion that moral atheists have beliefs that are very similar to the beliefs of moral theists.

You are the greatest man alive. period.

Boy are the men of the world going to be surprised when they find this out! <G>

no i have my own sets of moral standards lol, what i really meant, (which i really did not make clear) is that being an atheist, we should not share a moral code, but we should have our own. therefore not being turned into another religion. as such :/

but rules that we really do have to follow are the ones set by the government, otherwise we get in trouble.

just to make it clear, and thanks for writting me back! i didn't expect you to! xx

Ah, I see what you mean. But my opinion is that moral, thinking individuals who strive to come up with their own moral code will end up having many values in common -- whether or not they are atheists.

Nice website, very funny (but true) stuff. My friend has been getting everyone to think about atheism and how there's nothing wrong with not believing in god and forcing us to listen to Sam Harris...

You have an awesome website... You're doing god's work! ;)

Apparently, God's got a self-destructive streak! <G>

Seriously, though, I don't think there's inherently anything wrong with either believing in or not believing in a deity. It's all about how you go about it. And if God exists, then I would hope He would encourage us to use the minds He gave us, even if we ended up coming to incorrect conclusions on occasion.

The arguments page had me rolling on the floor in fits of laughter. Ok, not literally, but it Was pretty funny.

Regardless of what side of the fence a person's beliefs are, they would be a fool to not at least acknowledge some of the questions that athiests pose to christians. If there ever was a god it's word has been raped and altered by man so many times that what christians follow today is most likely blasphemy anyway.

I think that once humanity takes resposibility for it's own actions and ceases to answer to the 'boogieman' watching overhead for their every choice and consequence we will be better off as a species.

Furthermore, I don't have a problem with religion, though closed minded, stubborn, condescending people piss me off. Unfortunately christianity has too many self-righteous morons shouting their beliefs in the face of those of us that don't give a shit.

Bill Hicks says a lot of good things about religion, check him out if you've never heard of him. Anyways, thanks for the laughs. This site rules.

Closed-minded, stubborn, condescending people are problematic, no matter what philosophical viewpoint they are coming from. I'm actually bothered by annoying atheists more than I am by annoying religious folks, because when religious people act foolish it doesn't reflect on me.

Regarding God's word being mauled by humanity, I think you are probably correct. I think religious people should look carefully at their beliefs to try and separate the wheat from the chaff (as Thomas Jefferson did).

This reminds me, I recently was listening to a Christian podcast in which the speaker said (in a nutshell), "a third of the people in the world are Christians, and it's just not possible that a lie could make a third of all people wrong." The problem is, if these numbers are correct, and if Christianity is correct, then two-thirds of the people in the world are wrong. So if he's going by sheer numbers, Christianity has a problem. (Fortunately for him the argument is completely spurious).

wow. some of the hate mail that you're getting is pretty dang vile. and what i think is funny is that they so believe in god, and belive in his rules. i have never read the bible in my life, but doesn't it say something along the lines of "BE NICE!" come on guys! i'm and atheist (YEAH!) and i would never say anything close to the disgusting comments ya'll have made about another religion. don't they teach us in like, preschool to treat others the way you want to be treated!?

HUZZA TO ATHEISTS!!!! :D

Well, depending on what part of the Bible you are reading, advice on how to treat disbelievers varies. In the Old Testament, God seems to recommend killing (or at least not having much to do with) those who might corrupt true faith, while the New Testament has more of a focus on attempts at conversion. In any case, I think we can agree that Jesus wouldn't have written much of the blather I have received here.

i assume that this is a joke but its pissing people off

Then, seriously, these people need to calm down a little and take a joke. The concept of a Web site that can turn you into an atheist is just silly.

But if there is something more specific that is bothering you, please let me know. I will be happy to respond.

I'm Catholic but I still find this site humorous. I always find it silly how people atheists and theists try to PROVE themselves right. You can't do it. There is no proof that God exists. But there is also no proof that God doesn't exist. (sort of a paradox we got there eh?)

I don't plan on becoming atheist anytime soon but I'll admit I like some atheistic people. Why? Because they don't get up all in your face and make you feel like crap. Religous people (and I'm not saying ALL people with religon.) have a tendency to get all uppity.

But when YOU try to get uppity the religous people tell you to humble yourself. Also the techniques they try to use to convert people are not gonna work. Scare tatics, guilt trips, and all of that crap isn't gonna change people's minds. I know as a Christian (Catholic is a denomation of Christianity which is the religion. Anybody who says Christians and Catholics are different are dumbasses.) that I am suppose to try and "save" as many souls as I can. Well you know what I think? If people don't people what I believe and they end up getting burnt for eternity for it well then screw them and on the vice versa if I am wrong and they are right well then screw me! I admit I was raised a Catholic and there are probably a lot of you out there who I think I was brainwashed. They think I believe in Jesus because I don't want to go to hell. It's the opposite I don't want to go to hell because I believe that there is a Jesus (he lives down my street. Makes good burritos! Just kidding.) and a God and all that. Sure my parents probably did influence me but wouldn't society influence me too? Although there are more theists than atheists we live in a secular nonreligous world. Wouldn't that have some impact on me?

I believe that there is a God simply because of 2 reasons

1. There is no proof that he DOESN'T EXIST

2. If god does exist well then thats cool. and If I am wrong well then I lose.

It's all gamble. I'm really only hoping I am right.

Also even though I am Catholic I probably don't follow all the "rules".

For instance I don't read the bible.

Yeah I know that some religious people think I am gonna be influenced by the "non-believers" and all that crap because I don't know what the bible says. I don't think God really gives a crap if I read it or not. I believe in God and I don't want to kill anyone. What more could God want? a sandwich.

I don't believe in God because of what my parents, my pastor, my family or what anyone else thinks. I believe in God cause I feel like it.

You are right that an atheist can't prove that there are no deities in general (although it may be possible to prove that a specific description of God is impossible). This is why most atheists don't even try. There is no paradox because atheism (meaning simple disbelief in a deity) doesn't need to prove that there are no gods, it just doesn't have to be convinced that there is a god. It's up to religious people to prove that something supernatural exists, since disbelief is the default position from a scientific standpoint.

You say, "Anybody who says Christians and Catholics are different are dumbasses." You also say (essentially) that you believe in God because there's no proof of no God and if there is no God then you've lost nothing. The problem is, many of those "dumbasses" believe that Catholics are not true Christians because Catholics believe in salvation through works, meaning that you would be going to Hell if God exists.

So, let's look at a new way of deciding what religion to be:

1) Some Protestants (the "dumbasses" in question) believe that Catholics will go to Hell, even if they are good people.

2) Catholics believe that Protestants who are good people will go to Heaven.

3) If you are Protestant and Protestants are right you go to Heaven, but if you are Catholics and Protestants are right, then you will go to Hell. So shouldn't you be Protestant instead of Catholic?

Now, I don't for a minute think you should switch religions based on this argument. I'm just trying to illustrate a flaw in your thinking (which is essentially Pascal's wager).

I am also surprised that you haven't read the Bible. If you are a Catholic, then you believe that the Bible was written under the divine inspiration of God. It seems to me that if you believe this then the Bible would be the most important book in the universe. Isn't that good enough incentive to read the thing? And why would God go to all the trouble of putting the thing together if He didn't want you to read it? More importantly, by saying you are Catholic you are implying that you follow the Bible-- but what if there is some stuff in there that you disagree with? And are you familiar with Catholic doctrine (the eternal virginity of Mary, the sinfulness of using contraception, etc.) to know whether you agree with it or not?

There's nothing wrong with believing in God because you "feel like it." But if that's why you do, don't pretend that you have a logical reason for doing so (since you don't need one). I think you should also take a hard look at why you call yourself a Catholic. By saying you're Catholic you're saying things about yourself that may not be true.

Man, you rawk.

I really find this site interesting. I enjoy reading your arguments and the arguments of both pro- and anti- atheists. But do you know what makes people on either side sound more intelligent? Proper spelling.

You are corekt!

Fabulous! Free b**w j*bs for you when you're in my area, [town name deleted]!!!! (If you're a girl I'll buy you a chocolate and we can go clothes shopping, kay?)

I think this site is so ignorant and crude!

Just Kidding, I personally love it! It is very humorous!

I really enjoy the site and the blog. I happen to be a rather conservative Christian, but feel that everyone could benefit from more discussion, a lot more humor, and a touch of irreverence once in awhile.

I do wish that my fellow Christians would defend your right to have no religion with the same intensity that they defend our positions.

Please forgive me as I sign with the same wishes I always sign with...

God Bless

Glad to hear that you value discussion and tolerance -- I wish everyone did!

As for your ending "God Bless," I don't have a problem with that. Some atheists get upset about things like this, or about when people say "you'll be in my prayers" after a tragedy, etc. Personally, I take the statement in the positive spirit it is given and accept the compliment even if I don't agree with the metaphysics behind it. (For what it's worth, I don't get angry about retail clerks saying "Have a nice day," either.)

Your comment about hitler was an atheist is wrong. He was a catholic till the day he died. He hated the religon but was a practising catholic

On the page you are referring to, I don't say that Hitler was an atheist. Rather, I'm quoting a common argument against atheism that includes that pseudo-fact. From the little I know, Hitler's religious beliefs were unconventional at best.

I must say that I do love your site. Most of all the arguments page, as I have religious zealots always raising these points and I have never taken the time to really look into answering their questions, as I am answering my own. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to buy your stuff.

This is funny s**t.

hehe love the arguments against atheists!!! i was actually laughing so hard at them :D some religious ppl are so narrow minded!!! stil cya xo

hi, um, i have a question about this... so im 14, okay and i dont belive in god, or any religon because it all seems too far-fetched and made up to me, but i dont like worship the devil or anything like that either. but im not sure if im athiest or agnostic, or wut. i just plain and simple choose to not have a religon and life like so. so can someone help me understand more about this please?

I'm happy to help, if I can.

At 14, you've still got a lot of time to think about the big questions in life. There's nothing wrong with needing more time to gather information and form an opinion.

By my way of thinking, if you feel that religion is "far fetched" and don't believe in god, then you are an atheist. An atheist doesn't have to say "there is no god" (which is a tough statement to prove). Instead, an atheist can be someone who says "I am not convinced there is a god." So, if you don't see any reason to believe in a god, then you can call yourself an atheist.

Now, if you are uncomfortable calling yourself an atheist, you don't have to. There's nothing wrong with just telling people that you aren't religious if they ask what religion you are.

I would also like to point out that being an atheist doesn't mean rejecting everything that has to do with religion. For example, if your family has religion-based celebratory traditions you don't have to give them up just because you disagree with their religious roots, just so long as you aren't doing anything hypocritical. For example, I was raised Catholic, but as an atheist I still celebrate Christmas because I enjoy it, but I don't have a crèche and I don't go to church. I will also attend Catholic memorial services when requested out of respect for my friends and family, but I don't take communion.

Out of all of this, I'd say the most important thing is that you should try to live a good, moral life. Don't worry too much about what labels might apply to you.

not funny

I am 14 and a dedicated atheist, and I have a fairly simple question. I talk with my friends about religion often, and they're all pretty open to hear my beliefs- save one. He insists that creationism disproves evolution (it's just a theory... like gravity), and just laughs at the Flying Spaghetti Monster principle. Is there anything I can do to be heard sincerely? Or is this just a case of what I term 'religious brainwashing' by his incredibly Christian family?

Is there anything you can do to be heard sincerely by this person? May be not. But if this person is a friend, you might both benefit by encouraging intelligent, thoughtful conversation on these topics.

For example, it's very unusual to hear someone say that creationism "disproves" evolution. What evidence is there for creationism that is stronger than evidence for evolution?

If he says that evolution is "only a theory," you can point out that everything in science is referred to as a theory, and that evolution is backed by such a mountain of evidence (it's one of the best proved theories in science) that scientists treat it as a fact.

You might also want to ask him why he believes in God and if he thinks that these reasons should be compelling to an atheist. If he does have an argument for the existence of God, you may want to check with him that it's his reason for belief before addressing it (that is, see if he agrees that if you can disprove the argument then he will stop believing in God). If not, then this isn't really his reason for belief and he has to come up with something else.

Keep in mind that any way of thinking your friend uses he must allow you to use also. For example, if he says that he "knows" God exists because he can feel it inside, then he can't condemn you for saying that you "know" there is no God because you feel it inside.

Let me know if any specific topics of discussion with your friend are puzzling to you. And, most importantly, keep your conversations civil and intelligent -- it's good for everyone concerned and helps give atheists a good name.

Well...that certainly changed my mind. Kind of sad, though, that it could be changed so quickly.

Hi,

Let me just note that deception is our genetic heritage. Dawkins talks about the subtle gene but the British "subtle" would be the American "deceptive", I think. And our deception is all the more effective if we make ourselves believe it. Just to be clear, I don't consider myself exempt by any means.

If my purpose is to help other people, then how I help other people is not really relevant. I may feed them or provide shelter or whatever. Whether I feel good about helping them is also not relevant. The main idea is that my purpose is to help them.

If my purpose is to feel good, then helping other people is similarly merely a means to achieve that end and the means is not relevant to a discussion of purpose. Perhaps helping people will make me feel good or cheating them may make me feel good or whatever. The main idea is that my purpose is to feel good.

If you do a Google search, you will find very few people who are willing to say that their purpose in life is to feel good without tying that purpose to something we find more acceptable.

We all have a great need for self worth (self esteem). We cannot get that self worth through living for our own self happiness so we tend to subconsciously invent stories about helping other people.

Sure, go ahead and copy this to your site if you like. Go ahead and use my name if you want.

You're right about people not wanting to say that they do generous things because it makes them feel good about themselves. However, I still think that saying a goal of making the world a better place boils down to a desire to feel good about yourself is kind of like saying a goal of being a great chef boils down to a desire to not be hungry. Even if it is true in a technical sense, it is overly cynical and probably incorrect in implications.

I should also point out that a philosophy of helping others can be derived from pure self interest, whether or not the act of helping others makes you feel good or not. For example, if I would want others to come to my aid if I were injured, then I must go to the aid of the injured or be philosophically inconsistent.

Hi again,

No, you are right. I used to few words when I said "break". I just meant that if these people were going to come round to my house to try and tell me that what they believe is true, I wouldn't just shut the door. I'd invite them in and tell them my belief was true. the word "break" was a bit harsh. Each to their own, if they want to believe, they can, but try and force it on me and I will reciprocate!

Since I posted my message on your site, I read a lot further, in fact I read through to the end of the posts. I did skip a few of the longer one because after reading 5 or 6 long philosophical conversations my head started to hurt. What I'm getting at is ......the hate mail......from theists - that just does my head in completely - what they say just doesn't fit with their belief. I like they you deal with them.

Your site is in my favs, and I will keep dropping in.

Keep up the good work!

Okay, I understand your position better now. Regarding reading all the posts -- I completely understand about skipping the gigantic ones. They made my head hurt when I wrote them, too!

Mr. Atheist: (I don't know your name)

Thank you for the quick reply.

So long as your homepage is in jest, i am fine with it.

You wrote: "Your proof of the existence of God is interesting, but it involves using a definition of "God" that most religious people would not except." I disagree. I said: "If one defines god as whoever or whatever created the universe" I think most religious people would, in part at least, define god as "the creator" of the universe. Yes, they might also attach an omnipotent or omniscient part to it, but ,if some one creates something, aren't they omnipotent in respect to this thing? if i create...oh, i don't know...A painting. A solid, three dimensional painting that is hung on the wall. Can i not paint over a certain part if i choose, or tear it to shreds as i wish, or move it to another wall? Of course I can. In that respect, I am omnipotent over my painting. As for omniscience of God. In my painting, can i not tell you what brand of paint, or color of paint, or brush i used to paint it? I probably could. In that respect, I am Omniscient of my painting.

I eagerly await your reply.

P.S. Could you put a name on your site so we would know how to refer to you? that would make this easier.

P.P.S. I like your arguments against page, it's well thought out.

You are right that most religious people would say that god is the creator of the universe, but that doesn't imply that they would label whatever created the universe god. For example, Christianity requires that God be personal, and the concept of infinity (to use your original example) is not personal. I think it would also be misleading to say that infinity "created" the universe, in that "created" implies planning of some kind, and infinity is mindless.

I would also quibble with your use of the word omnipotent. I don't think that omnipotence can be used as a relative term -- it's more "all or nothing." A painter is not omnipotent with respect to her painting because she is still limited in what actions she can take regarding the painting (she can't make it have never existed or stop it from aging, for example). The same would be said of omniscience -- a painter might know what kind of paint was used but know nothing about how it sticks to the canvas, the chemistry of new colors coming from the mixing of old colors, etc.

So, if I were you, I'd back away from the all-encompassing definition of God that you are using. If you say "I believe God exists" because you are making it true by definition, then you will be implying to some people that you have religious beliefs that you may not have. That is deceptive, whether you intend it to be or not.

Responding to your P.S. -- I don't use my name (and prefer not to be referred to as "Mr.") because I make a point of not discussing my gender. I have found that gender sometimes gets in the way of intelligent conversation, so I specifically avoid it.

How does not being greedy, a killer, a liar, a thief and an unkind person make me an atheist and not a believer in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, when the Holy Scriptures are the bases in human civilization whereby we have been taught not to do these things? Skewed, baby.

Being moral doesn't make you an atheist any more than it makes you a theist. And being a theist or atheist does not make you moral. I would hope, though, that both religious and non-religious people would do their best to be moral individuals.

I also must quibble with your implication that Judeo-Christianity is the bases of moral human civilization. There are plenty of moral people and societies without Judeo-Christian roots.

I consider myself a "moral atheist", and I'm shocked by the hate mail on your site that I've read from proclaimed Christians. I am quite curious as to how one can call another a "f****t" and in the same breath say that they follow a religion which involves loving your enemies. I can tell that you have experience in dealing with these sorts of people, so can you shed any light on the reasoning, if any, behind these disgusting e-mails? They have succeeded in making me quite angry, which is something that happens very rarely to me and which I strive, as a pacifist, to avoid.

I think people tend to lash out at things that make them uncomfortable, particularly when they don't have a more intelligent response at the ready. It's sad.

Why is it that certain people tend to read atheist or atheism as homosexual or homosexuality. I was reading through some of your hate mail and I noticed that was a reoccurring phenomenon. I am not sure when announcing a certain belief also announces your sexual orientation, I'm pretty confident that isn't the case.

Thank you for your time.

P.s. This comment was not an attack on anyone, but more so just a few observations.

For some people, "gay" is the worst thing you can call someone. I think that's pathetic.

awsome dude...but ive been commited since before this but thx

You're right, I made a lot of generalizations. However, I do feel confident about most of them. My veganism example was one of many I could supply regarding what I feel is evidence of superior morality. And indeed, much of my morality can be found in the basic tenets of Christ's teachings and that of other great spiritual leaders throughout history. The Golden Rule, for example. Meanwhile, it seems that those who are closest to the church are the farthest from actually heeding its simplest yet most profound lessons. I agree that animals probably don't have an exact concept of torture, but that wasn't entirely my point. Exactly like us, they have a hard-wired concept of pain, as well as a hard-wired pain-avoidance system. Pain is obviously a component of our bodies to warn us that we are in danger and that we should do something about it. The greater the pain, the greater the danger, and therefore the greater feeling of panic and distress. So if we make such an effort to spare our own kind from pain, how do we have the right to inflict it, and in such quantity, upon other living things? We don't, is the easy answer, and if we do, or even if we participate in a system that causes mass pain upon others, we are being immoral. This seems very basic and logical to me. I admit I could be mistaken about this, but I doubt it. Sure, Judeo-Christianity clearly evolves, but it seems to do so only to defend itself - to stay in business, as it were, and only as far as its ancient texts can be interpreted to allow. It never seems to make leaps of wisdom as a whole. Its practitioners are as crude and primitive as they've ever been. Sure, there have been great individual thinkers among its ranks over the centuries, who have thought and written great things that have had the potential to elevate its people, but this information clearly doesn't get to the hordes. And in America, at least, these hordes comprise the majority of our population. Thus I'm confident in my claim of superior morality. It's actually not a big feat for anyone who is even slightly awake. But yes, you're right that there is a relatively small group of people living an examined life, and I don't claim moral superiority over them. Nor do I ever encounter them.

I agree that at least "higher" animals feel pain (which, I hasten to point out, is a separate issue from whether they have emotions). I also agree that we should minimize pain and suffering. But I don't think the issue is as cut-and-dried as you seem to be implying. For example, couldn't one not be vegan and at the same time try not to cause animals pain? We buy our eggs at a farmer's market from an independent farmer who keeps free-range chickens -- I think that's pretty painless for the chickens. And, just curious, would you still be a vegetarian if there was a way to kill animals painlessly? If so, then I suspect it's more than pain that you are concerned about.

When discussing the subject of avoiding pain, we also have to decide whether or not human pain is more or less important than animal pain. For example, let's say that (in general) chickens suffer when they live in an egg farm, but that eggs are needed to create flu vaccines. Is the pain (and possible death) of those who would get the flu without a vaccine more or less important than the pain of the chickens? Whichever way you answer this question, I don't think that the answer is obvious enough for you to look down on those who disagree with you.

There are also people who, for one reason or another (health, finances, location), are unable to be vegetarian. I don't think that automatically makes them morally inferior.

I think you are right that religions generally change to defend themselves, but another way to phrase this would be to say that they change as times change. They tend to be very much like politics in that respect, if a little slower because they have to justify change with something more than popular opinion. I'm not sure what you'd call a leap of wisdom in this context, but Vatican II was a pretty huge change for Catholicism, and the religion has survived the change pretty well, even though (in my opinion) it still has a long way to go.

I tend to disagree about religious practitioners being "as crude and primitive as they've ever been." There is a lot more free thought and tolerance within religion these days than there was even a few hundred years ago. The progress is enough to give me hope for the future.

While I applaud your desire to be a moral person and your harm-free lifestyle, I still think your attitude is too smug (or, at least, you come off that way).

about the response to "God made His image appear in this tortilla!" in the faq, you say you would eat it. why not sell it and make some money off of it?

Good suggestion! The next time I find one of those tortillas, that's exactly what I'm going to do! (Unless I'm really hungry, of course!)

I agree with your propositon; life satisfaction comes from within.

You've said in other conversations that you refuse to discount direct experience as an inspiration for religious faith. I have had such an experience, but as it occured in a mental health ward, I have problems accepting it at face value. (Nor would I expect you to be convinced by it!) The essential difficulty is that I remain unsure if one can reason one's way into faith, and unless I find a way to incorporate my ferocious intellect into religious practice, my position will be intollerable.

So I have to ask some more questions which my own search has led me to: given that a religious paradigm is not necessary for morality, nor is it a guarantor of moral behavior, can religion be classified as a cultural question rather than a moral one? Also, given my own background I have to wonder what effect early exposure to religion has on a child's development. Outside of developmental concerns, I wonder whether a personal embrace of religion necessarily means forgoing those principles of free thought that are so important to intellectual rigor. I believe that this is the case in a number of sects, but I don't have the knowledge of religious beliefs by sect to back up my belief.

My direct religious experience has added a sense of urgency to these questions. For reasons of community and understanding, I have been building connections with the Unitarian Universalist congregation in my area. I can't deny that singing in the choir has a certain appeal which may outwiegh religious concerns, but the congregation seems to be most open and interested in helping its members puzzle through those moral and intellectual puzzles that faith presents.

It is definitely possible to reason one's way into faith. For example, one could examine the facts and decide that a deity is the best explanation for the origin of life. I would disagree with such an argument and I don't find it compelling, but I can't discount it because it's based on an individual's level of comfort with certain evidence. moving from a faith such as this to a Bible-based faith is a big jump, but a reasonable individual might be able to do it if they are willing to accept certain kinds of proof as sufficient.

I'd say that religion is a part of culture, as is morality, and that they often overlap. I would also say that both have non-cultural components as well.

In my opinion, exposing children to religion has a wide variety effects, some good and some bad. Good effects would include the passing down of shared culture and knowledge and (hopefully) moral teachings. Bad effects might include emphasis on belief without thought, blind obedience to authorities, and belief in things that are not supported by facts.

Embracing religion does not require forgoing free thought (although it might be argued that some specific religions -- particularly those popularly labeled cults -- require this). It also does not necessarily require abandoning intellectual rigor. But unfortunately there are too many religious people who not only refuse to apply intellect to their religious beliefs, but also try and make this self-enforced ignorance sound like a sign of moral superiority.

Unitarianism may be a good choice for someone who is an atheist but enjoys the feeling of a religious community. There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, there are many Jewish people in the United States to attend synagogue for cultural and social reasons even though they are openly atheists.

cool church is so boring and i never really beleaved in god cause i had no proof

Glad to have you aboard! But keep in mind that "boring" does not imply "untrue" -- fortunately you already have a better basis for your atheism (no proof).

Dear Sir/Madam

First, please allow me to congratulate you on an excellent site. Your points are all very clearly argued without the condescension towards others' viewpoints that many athiests seem to demonstrate.

I should state now that I, too, am an athiest and I think that one of the biggest dangers facing the world is sloppy reasoning or even an unwillingess or inability to employ reason at all.

My reason for writing to you is to ask you a question that you yourself have asked many times in your correspondence: What has led you to adopt your current viewpoint towards God?

I have been an athiest for as long as I can remember but I didn't have any especially solid reasons (I had an intuition that Christianity, the only religion I'd had experience of at the time, was 'ridiculous', the worst kind of argument.) until I did my A-Levels and then my Philosophy Degree.

Now, as it happens, I don't believe in God for a whole slew of reasons. One of the strongest of these, though, is that, from my studies into physics and epistemology I don't believe in free will. Since this is one of the things most frequently doled out by gods to humans on creation I am forced, to be consistent, to abandon any beliefs in these religions. Obviously this doesn't deny the possibility of the existence of gods with fewer attributes than those in the mainstream religions but it seems that a god whose only attribute is to be a creator isn't much of a god at all, in the sense that most theists would like.

I wonder what your opinions on free will/determinism are? There seems to me, especially in this area of philosophy, a great possibility to come to conclusions many would regard as 'bleak'. Do you think it is irresponsible to advocate beliefs to people who may be upset by the consequences of those beliefs? Do the benefits of having a consistent belief system outweigh the potential apathy, detachment and even sadness that can come with certain strongly athiestic viewpoints?

I'm afraid this has come out a bit rambling but it's late and I don't want this first message to go on forever. I would be delighted to enter into further correspondence, however.

Great questions here! I'll answer briefly, and then we can elaborate in further correspondence, if you like.

My current viewpoint toward God came from a desire to learn more about the religion I was born into (Catholicism). While reading the Bible, I quickly ran into questions that my religious friends either couldn't answer or made them turn to authorities for answers instead of applying their own intellect. This lead me to develop my two rules for acceptable philosophy (namely: any acceptable philosophy must a) not contradict itself, and b) not condemn others who reason as the philosophy reasons). From these two rules I developed a personal system of morality and belief, of which atheism was a natural result.

There are not a whole lot of people who believe in a god with fewer attributes than those in most mainstream religions, but I like to remind people that the United States was founded by people with such beliefs (deists).

Now, free will and determinism. Personally, I believe that the universe is at heart deterministic, although (for reasons of chaos theory) I guess that we will never be able to plot the course of truly complex systems (perhaps including the human brain). Free will is a more difficult question, in that I have yet to see a really good definition of free will -- that is, one that does not include a soul or anything else supernatural and still conforms to experience. I will say that I think free will is likely a side effect of perception and as such can exist even if the world is completely deterministic.

I do not think that any of this is bleak. I do not personally advocate atheism for everyone (I advocate intellectual rigor and intelligent questioning), but I also do not think that atheism is inherently bleak. I think that there can be a good argument made for the immorality of trying to force rationalism on someone who is happy where they are and is not harming themselves or others. I do not try and convince my grandmother to convert to atheism because she is happy the way she is and, at this point in her life, would likely not benefit from the change.

Thanks for writing!

I was looking at the FAQ and laughing at the really lame/dumb questions people were asking, I liked the way you answered them, I probably wouldn't call myself an atheist, if anything im a satanist (probably spelt wrong) but I still get annoyed when idiots who think everyone should beleive in god start rambling about bullshit and how the bible is proof when anyone could have wrote it. God is probably just to comfort humanity. Plus I think ill mention that I dont have rights and responsabilities with whatever religion I am, I dont see why people want to know what happens when we die. Why ruin the surprise?

There are, in general, two kinds of Satanists -- religious Satanists (who worship an actual anti-God) and atheistic Satanists (as in the Church of Satan, who in a sense just say they worship Satan to annoy Christians). You sound a little bit like the latter, but should read up on it before making any decisions.

Some people believe that the Bible has an amount of historical value, and there are indeed some things written about in the Bible that can be verified historically. I don't think it can be relied upon as evidence of the supernatural, but even so I would not say someone who thought it had value was necessarily "rambling about bullshit." The Bible's origins are quite complex, and I don't think it should be dismissed so disrespectfully even by those of us who suspect it's wrong about a heck of a lot.

Regarding rights and responsibilities, I'd say that you have those no matter what religion you belong to (if any). For example, you have the right not to be punched in the face for no reason, and the responsibility to not try violate this right in others.

Thanks for writing!

Love your website. The 'arguements' section was hilarious. I especially like the one about god loving the smell of burnt animals LOL. It's true, i remember reading about it in sunday school when i was a kid. It sounded completely absurd then as it does now. I'll have to remember some of them and use them when someone forces me into another boring religious debate again. Keep up the good work. And yes, i am an athiest. Cheers!

The "smell of burnt animals" bit in the Bible was obviously meant for people of another time. It really annoys me that some religious people will admit that parts of the Bible were written for another culture (such as the parts on slavery), but insist that other parts are meant for us without giving us a good criteria for being able to tell the two apart.

Thanks for the nice note!

Byjustclickingthisthisbuttondoesnotmakemeanaethiestbeacauseiamanatheist. Lolihavenothingagainstyourwebsitbutihavehadaprofoundexperiencewithgodlolanditkeptmelegal goodbyeyour666freindmax.bythewayihavenospacelololoopololoooo,olkllllllloljijohfsliuegbaiy gvbuygvbluydafygbehuve

pleaseresendthisemailbackiwillbesoghratefuliactualyhavenospacebar.pleaseletmeknowiexistasa oneandnotacollective.youwill!!!!savemylife.

)!traD .sdrawkcab dellatsni saw draobyek ym tub, rab ecaps a evah od I ,yaw eht yB( !spleh siht epoh I .tsixe uoy taht niatec ylbanosaer ma I

Best site ever!

I think you have done a great job, especially on the come backs, i will be memorising those!

You know, I would be an athiest, if I wasnt already preoccupied with Christianity.

Feel free to visit when you're less busy. I'll watch for you!

Considering so many people think you're gay, why do they always want to "f**k you" on the next line?

I don't even want to know.

I am an atheist and have been so for about 6-7 years now. I will be turning 19 very soon. While I do support every atheist I come across I do have a problem with your "Atheistic Rights and Responsibilities" section. As an Atheist we have chosen to follow our own paths and choices of our so called "rights and responsibilities" and you would probably do good to either drop said section or edit it by saying something along the lines of, "now that you know you are an atheist and do not need the guidance of a higher power, you are free to make up your own mind and morals. But for now here's a good place to start:"

Have a good day. :D

I get a lot of comments like this. The AR&R page is more intended to point out to religious folks that atheists can be as moral as them than to be a list of rules for atheists. However, I will give some thought to putting a statement of some kind at the bottom of the page as you suggested.

This is pretty darn brilliant, I must admit. Is there anything more you can do with this site? Perhaps add not just joke arguments, but real ones? To be fair to the other side, get a team of willing Christians (and OTHER religions as well!) to present arguments along with yours. This site could become more popular and more intriguing if you had more info from both sides. Perhaps you truly could get some people to think for themselves, eh?

Also, I've tried going to your blog, but my dad has a block on my computer and it's coming up saying there's porn on there. Are you advertising some dirty stuff or there some random language in there it's picking up? Well anyway, if at all possible, please clean it up so it'll be easier for me to go there.

And lastly, please email me of any progress or change you make to this site. I think it's really cool and would love to see more done with it in the future. And remember: God is watching :)

May the nothingness/everything be with you

I don't really want to put much of "the other side" on the site (that's what www.iamatheist.com is for -- although I admit it's a tad harsh).

Really, the blog is the place for discussions of the sort you suggest. I think the reason it's being blocked is that some of the hate mail I receive (all of which I post on the blog) has some rather foul language on it. Now that you have pointed out this problem, I'm going to go through and do a little censoring (inserting asterisks into some of the nasty words) over the next week so that this will, hopefully, no longer be an issue.

In the meantime, perhaps you could ask your dad to white-list iamanatheist.blogspot.com? Or if not that, if you have a news reader you can subscribe to the blog.

Unfortunately, I don't have an e-mail notification list for the site. Once you get access to the blog, you'll see all new content as it is added.

Thanks for the input!

This site is fantastic. Funny, and your having a bash at religion...what could be funnier!! I'm an English Atheist and stumbled on this site by chance - or was it fate!! Anyway, I was wondering if you ship your t-shirts and stuff over to the UK??

Peace

All of the merchandise is put together by Café Press, and I believe that they do ship to the UK. Give it a try! (I need the money! <G>)

was this supposed to be a trap for religious people. beacause i dont care what youre american politician thinks im british where freedom actually exists not like youre illusion in america. and as for my mother she knows im an athiest and shes an athiest two. as for the pope why would i care if that wanker knows im athiest, is he going to announce me as a heathen. if so im glad, religion causes nothing but suffering. one last thing are you religious. and also too all americans speak properly. its colour not color and doughnuts not donuts. fat shits.

I came to this site expecting some stupid religious non-sense on Atheists. I was please to find out that it was quite the opposite. I found the "Arguments" section to be possibly the funniest thing I've read in a while =]

Keep it up and hope you have a great day!

I stumbled across your site and found it very interesting. While I'm not sure what I believe in, it's still good to hear both sides of the story in a rational, logical way. I also want to congratulate you for continuing on with this in spite of the narrow mined people who sometimes reply to you. The hate mail was fairly disturbing but after reading a few posts labeled 'Personal Attack' I felt compelled to write. Even knowing that the people who wrote these are showing the less than Christain value of hate ( for want of a better phrase) it still must be terrible to open your mail and find these. so thank you.

If everyone was rational and logical, it wouldn't matter that much if the world was full of different religious beliefs. I appreciate your support!

I like your site. It's funny, the pics, the writings, etc.

But it is small. You should think a little more (cynically) about new ways to inform and at same time joke a bit about it. There are plenty of funny stories, like the "Kiss Bob's Ass" or smth, which is a pretty funny story. Not yours? Well, make a link of it, that's the beauty of Internet. I really feel cornered when I enter a site that is closed to itself. And has little to offer.

Other than that, keep up good work.

Thanks for the suggestion. At this time, I'm concentrating on keeping up discussion in the IAmAnAtheist blog as a means to keep the site growing. I do have a few ideas for things to add to the main site in the future -- so we'll see!